Tuesday, August 19, 2008

"Why Kate's Contempt For Dead Locke?"

"Why would I go to the funeral?"
It was a simple reply, and not laced with too much emotion (probably to keep us from sensing too much about it), but I could see enough of a tinge of repulsion in it that I kind of expected Kate to spit on the ground after she said it to seal the sentiment. A lot of other fans sensed it enough that many voted for Ben being the dead-guy, since he has done so much to earn the hatred of any of the 815ers.

I wonder what happened between Kate and John that ticked her off so much? Could it just be because of all his efforts to keep them from leaving the island? His general half-cocked, explosive craziness? Or is it something that Locke did as the alias Jeremy, after they left the island? Makes you wonder if John might have tried to abduct Aaron somehow when he went to talk to Kate, on his off-island recruiting mission. He could have gone to her to convince her to take Aaron back to the island, she says no, and when she goes to get some iced tea in the kitchen to politely send him off, he sneaks upstairs to try to nick Aaron and she catches him and freaks out. As with everything else, we'll just have to wait and see.

32 comments:

pgtbeauregard said...

One of the reasons I was so certain it was Michael in the coffin (aside from the ghetto neighborhood tptb used to try to con us), was that Kate really didn't like whoever it was.

Maybe it was because he was just so wacko at the end.

Capcom said...

I figured that it was Mike too, especially because of the fake (so they say) obit. I never in a zillion years would guess why it would be Locke, with what we knew way back then.

memphish said...

I figure the contempt is due to Kate-logic. Kate even though mad at Jack has Jack's back and Jack doesn't like Locke. That's the kind of logic Kate would employ, i.e. empty-headed.

More seriously I think it's Mama Bear protectiveness. Locke wants them to go back to the Island, even the 2-year/3-year old Aaron who hasn't had a chance to go to school, hasn't gotten to decide for himself what life choices to make, and frankly has no romantic prospects but that creepy older Emma assuming she's still around on the Island. If Locke wanted me to take my son to the Island, even if my other choice was raising him in LA, I'd take LA.

Capcom said...

LOL Memphish! Good points, I bet you're right. She probably just wanted Locke to go away and leave them alone...that he went away by dying most likely wouldn't phase her.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I kinda knew it was Locke in the coffin as soon as I saw the screen cap for the Bentham name. Wikipedia helped me buy into the connection because of the numerous Johne Locke mentions, but I still think, WHY such an elaborate made up name? I know the producers and writers gave us a clue in the name, but Michael became simply Kevin Johnson. Unless John found the stash of Ben's fake IDs--how I don't know--and used the name on it, as Ben did with Dean "ON THE ROAD" Moriarty.

Getting back to KATE, though, I agree with Memphish, she's empty-headed. Jack hated Locke at the end, she likely gives a crap for anybody who was still back on the Island (except for Sawyer), in the water, or on the freighter. So its part Jack not liking him and Kate MORE pissed because Jack went to the funeral parlor. I don't get the Kate/Aaron dynamic, I really think its something like Aaron having an influence over her in some small way.

memphish said...

Wayne said I don't get the Kate/Aaron dynamic, I really think its something like Aaron having an influence over her in some small way.

That makes me think about Claire and her goodness having to be with Aaron vs. Kate and her conviction that she will never be good. Maybe Aaron is somewhere between that Claire/Kate spectrum and some "goodness" is rubbing off on Kate, but I'd guess we better hope Kate's "not goodness" (I don't ever think they say she's per say bad, just not good) doesn't rub off on Aaron.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thanks, Memphish. And whereas its always two symbols of everything, the black and white stones, I still don't believe in just good and evil. As you said Kate's not bad (just selfish), but as Ben once told Jack "she's not one of the good ones." Makes me wonder, too, if Claire IS dead. I think Jacob wanted her separated from Aaron around the time he told Locke to move the Island. Time gets diluted by watching the show, episode by episode, but I think she walks off with Christian/Jacob within a day of Locke's arrival.

And going back to what I said at the beginning, I think it is the Others who are wrong in thinking there is only good and bad, black and white. There's redemption, too. It has occurred with a half-dozen survivors on Island, easily. And yet everyone, even one-notes like Greta and Bonnie in the Looking Glass and surprise comebacks like Mikhail still take Ben/Jacob's word in a cult-like way. And I can't imagine most of the Others needing to be brainwashed in Room 23.

Lost 2010 said...

Aaron's romantic prospects - -LOL
I guess there would be JiYeon if they actually ALL went back.

As for Kate's contempt. I am also in the camp that believes the writers had a change of heart regarding the coffin occumpant. But, to go with it.

It only makes sense if Hurley told them everything that happened after they followed Locke - including how Locke and Ben shut Sawyer and Claire out during a gun battle. And how Locke threatened to kill Sawyer if Hurley didn't go with him. If she cared anything at all about Sawyer (and they seem to play it like she has feelings for both men), I can see her hating Locke. Problem is - that's all conjecture - we never saw Hurley update the rest of them on what happened at Locke's camp.

Capcom said...

Great thoughts you all. :-)

Tx, it does help me to think about Rm23 in understanding the Others cultishness. Otherwise, WTH?!

What you said makes me think about how Abraham got God to save more and more of Sodom and Gomorrah from destruction, if Abe could find even just a few people who would listen. Which falls into the redemption part, that is to say, if the Others/Jacob would just look for some of the good in the 815ers, more could have been saved (from Smokey's wrath?) or been "on the list". Obviously Jacob's so-called love is very limited.

I have to say that Kate's sudden "180" about babies just hasn't settled right with me as believable. Maybe it was triggered by the moment when they stepped of the C130 and she was left all alone with no ome but Aaron. But I'd hate to see Kate bring a child up to have her sense of selfish recklessess. :-p

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

lost, I think it always had to be Locke in the coffin. The Bentham ID could have been a red herring, but the only way to make Ben's comments of "we ALL have to go back" work is to have it be Locke. Its easy to see how the writers have been laying their bricks. And very methodically now that the show has a definite end time.

Re: Locke and Hurley, part of the whole "hate Locke" thing is Jack screwed up just about everything, and Locke screwed up just as many times (e.g., Boone dying), but what Jack screwed up affected the Oceanic Six (biggest example, inviting the frieghter gang to the Island). He is stubborn, Kate is selfish. Maybe once Hurley told them in the raft "Locke really did it. He moved the Island," that nothing else Hurley said would make Jack even care to believe him.

I tend to agree Sun's baby would have to return as she was conceived on Island, but Sun will of course be working with Widmore at this point.

Capcom: the S&G comparison is a good one and goes with Biblical references. And I guess people can look at Kate's ideals in different ways. Not being Devil's advocate, but, if anything, I saw Kate conconcoting the Aaron is Kate's baby scenario to avoid prison. Still her selfish self. So I still don't get the Kate/Aaron thing. There's a brick yet to be laid...

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Concocting being the correct (and not made up) word, of course.

Lost 2010 said...

wayne - Even with what they've shown us thus far, I have no idea why Jack was so broken up by Locke's death - that's one of those "Bless his heart" moments to me. As in "That poor old Jeremy Bentham was crazy as a bessie-bug, but he thought that island was magic til the day he died - Blesshisheart" Followed by signing the book at the funeral home and offering cake and shoulder to cry on to the family. Then you move on with your life. You don't decide that the crazy guy had a point unless part of his rant was - "They're after me! They'll say I committed suicide!!"

My comment about JiYeon was tongue-in-cheek. . .I had this amusing mental image of an older Kate trying to find Aaron a wife on the island. . .

Capcom said...

LOL Lost2010.

I was wondering about that myself. I just racked it up to another poor-me-little-Jack moment...i.e., either "I couldn't save him from himself!", or, "I'm so evil I wouldn't even listen to him and now I see he was right, waaaaaaa!"

You're reason is kinder. :-)

memphish said...

I figure Locke held out to Jack that if Jack convinces everyone else to come too Locke can get them back to the Island. This is a notion that's been planted in Jack's psyche all the way back from Ep 4.1 and Jack's just beginning to come around to it. Being Jack, of course he has to try his own way first, so he flies over the Pacific hoping to crash rather than trying to talk Sun into getting the gang back together and putting on a show. And now with Locke dead he thinks all roads back are gone forever thus leading to the suicide attempt.

memphish said...

Also, maybe he went back to the funeral parlor after hours hoping the Locke's corpse like his dad's on Island would lead him to water.

Capcom said...

You said:"And now with Locke dead he thinks all roads back are gone forever thus leading to the suicide attempt."

That's good, I can really buy that scenario, it works well.

Lost 2010 said...

Makes Jack-sense anyway.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Jack went to the funeral parlor partly for a reason we can't know yet, we haven't been told what "Bentham" said to everyone. He started taking the pills and booze long before Locke showed up off-Island, though, I'm sure because of what the mess he made of the O6's getting off the Island. Hell, "Bentham" could have simply said a phrase we've heard over and over, "you have to clean up your own mess."
In 2007, we see Jack finally knowing this when he listens to what Ben has to say. Jack went to the funeral parlor because that's what Jack does, and Ben knew that enough to hide either the first time or before Jack's second arrival. I don't see the scene from last year as an Awww moment, after all, Jack was dry-popping oxycodone with one hand on the casket for balance. Well, Ben seems to have had 2 1/2 years to get his plans to play out against Widmore, back to the subject, who will be harder to recruit, Kate or Sun?

Oh, and Lost, didn't know you were joking about Ji Yeon, but it would be logical and make for added tension if the baby did need to go with the 06.

Lost 2010 said...

To clear up any confusion - I did not - nor would I ever actually- bless Jack's heart (I am of the opinion that Jack's problems are Jack's fault). I was blessing Locke's heart because he can't seem to do anything right despite trying his hardest. Even being leader of the Others didn't work out for him, blesshisheart.

Kate's easy (well, in that way too but that's not what I meant)- tell her Sawyer's in trouble - tell her you've got DNA that shows she's not really Aaron's mother and that you're about to give it to the D.A. - pay the nanny to slip something in her orange juice. She doesn't weigh much -knocked out I bet even druggy Jack could carry her on the boat.

Sun's tougher. She's got money and power to insulate her. But a picture of poor limping scarred up Jin having a beer with Sawyer on the beach and I bet you anything she's financing the entire venture.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Sorry, lost. Between the Kate and the Jack and the Locke comments, I misread what you said when I typed my reply. I thought you were doing Jack-sarcasm at Locke in the coffin. That last scene at The Orchid, Jack pretty much thought Locke had gone over the edge. Sorry if I mistyped on your behalf.

Even though I asked the dumb question, I'll add to the replies, Sun would be willing to go right away, for Widmore and to avenge Jin. But also, she hates Jack and/or Ben (assumedly one of the two people that includes her father), so I'm wondering if Ji Yeon will be the leverage needed. And, yea, Kate can get won over for the most idiotic reasons. I suppose another interesting thing will be the Sayid/Sun dynamic involving Widmore.

At some point at least a few of the 06 will tell the others what Locke said to them off-Island.

Capcom said...

Good guess about Locke telling Jack to clean up his own mess, Wayne! I'll bet he does! :-D

You're right Lost, Kate would be easy to arm-twist into going back, with all that she has to lose (mostly her freedom) if the secrets get told. And true enough, if Locke waved a pic of Jin in front of Sun she would fly back.

Yes Wayne, let's hope that TPTB tell us some of what were the messages from "Jeremy" to the O6-ers!

Didn't Sayid tell Hurley that Locke's death was suicide? I hope that Sayid didn't kill Locke. I get this creepy feeling that in order for Ben to get back, he had to get Locke out of his way and may have had Sayid kill him,if the only way to get Locke to go back with Ben, would be for Ben to take Locke back dead. :-(

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I've thought about Sayid working with Ben and the supposed "suicide with signs of a struggle" (cop terminology). We saw Locke in the coffin for all of three seconds. If one wanted to argue over why it was a closed coffin, well...here goes. Ben knows Jack better than Jack knows Jack. He knew that Jack would return to the funeral home later that night and that's why he was there. What if, and I've had this in my head a while but thought I'd toss it out now, what if after the home closed, Ben and Sayid changed bodies? This would explain the crappy neighborhood, which we thought was a Michael-in-the-coffin deal. I guess I'm on the line of thinking who is with Ben first now when it comes to the return to the Island. Best guess: Sayid, to avenge Nadia. But they'd need something more, something bigger. So the obit runs, some body lies in the casket, only to be replaced with Locke's later, a very alive Locke who has just been given a sedative. Again, it was only a few seconds, and in S5 Ben might close that coffin right back up in another second. Jack won't touch him, won't realize he is breathing. It might all hinge on what "Benthem" said to everyone that would cause Ben to stage the suicide. Did Ben lie to Locke when he said moving the FDEW meant banishment? Possibly, he seemed insincere even apologizing for all the things he put John through. But if Locke came to New York City as Tom did (that sub is still around, Locke was soaking wet after the dock blew up in ENTER 77, he simply submerged the sub from view, then swam to the surface), he had to have done it for a reason, not just to get some lovin' like Tom did. If Locke is still alive and then goes back to the Island separate from the O6 (via the sub), it certainly would be a jaw-dropping moment for Jack to find yet another empty casket on the Island. Food for thought. I mean really. Why a closed coffin? If my thinking is right and there is Ben, Sayid, and now Jack, ready to get the old gang together, Hurley will be next to join (he's seen both Jack and Sayid). Kate has the O6 lie over her head and Sun is in cahoots with Widmore without Ben knowing. Is this how it will play out? The closed coffin wasn't a device to keep people guessing, going back to S1, "everything happens for a reason."

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

oh, and lost? (I probably seem as if I'm on this all morning but I'm constantly getting called away by minor things and end each post rather than lose it), I think that it is very possible that Sun would be financing this if "Bentham" told her he saw Jin back on the Island. Hell, Ben knows of her net worth and how many of the O6 even know the Ben/Widmore connection? Ben could have even been working WITH Locke, having "Benthem" tell something different to each survivor. We saw Ben tell a story to Sayid and then walk away smiling once he knew he had Sayid on his side. That is a good call on Sun financing things, and maybe it was indeed because--more than for any other reason--Locke/Bentham would have told her Jin was alive and unlike Ben, Locke wouldn't lie in that way.

Lost 2010 said...

The guy offered to open the casket for Jack, I thought. I was thinking it had just been closed because the viewing was over. Maybe I'm wrong though.

But $50 and an e-mail gets you an obituary right? So if you're right - there need not have even been a staged suicide. Just hide Bentham out somewhere - set up the funeral, submit the obit, and run your con.

I wonder if they have to "want to go back" - because that would be a lot tougher sell.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Good thoughts, lost. And yes, the funeral parlor guy did offer to open the lid for Jack last year, I forgot. Not to say that the guy worked for Ben and at the moment he would have lifted the lid a phone could've rang to stop that from happening. And yes, they have to WANT to return if its Ben doing this because everything about the Others and Jacob & Ben is that you have to WANT to do it. We never asked you to kill two people, Michael. I wanted you to WANT to operate on me, Jack. Creepy & cult-like. But, yea, if its a WANT situation, its Ben calling the shots.

Capcom said...

Excellent thoughts, my friends!

Well, that terminology for a suspected suicide just about covers all the possiblities. :-)

Good point about how they might have to want to go back. TPTB have hinted many times as you mention, that for some reason, even though some things are forced, other things are not and have to be acted out willingly. I wonder if you have to "want" to go into Rm23 too, to get your brain washed. :-D

Lost 2010 said...

And Locke could have brought back some of that Spider venom that Nikki and Paolo got hold of... hmmm, I like it. I like it.

pgtbeauregard said...

Lost 2010,

I am so with you on the spider venom theory - it's the same stuff Christian Shepherd took to make Jack think he was dead.

I don't think Locke is dead. And it's possible Ben is behind everything - he's ALWAYS one step ahead of everyone else.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And here I thought everyone was going to call me crazy saying that Locke is just napping...

lost, good call on the spider venom. Everything shows up again in some form.

pgtbeauregard said...

Wayne,

you're not crazy - just a good Lost fan! :)

Lost 2010 said...

Crazy? They just moved AN ISLAND. . .nothing is too outlandish anymore.

Capcom said...

Count in my vote for the venom trick! That would be neat. :-D